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Presidential Spokesperson, Reuben Abati, denies allegations of a massacre in Baga village, Borno state in an interview with SaharaTV’s Rudolf Okonkwo. He accused Human Rights Watch and the media of playing politics by distorting the facts. He also shot back at his critics for clamoring for the best brains to join the government and then turning around to abuse them. He talked about security votes, the $40 million contract to an Israeli company, and the prospects of President Jonathan having an online discussion with Nigerians abroad.
Transcript of Reuben Abati’s Interview on SaharaTV
1. Please summarize your report of the Baga incidence
The statement that I issued on the matter was based on the submission of reports to the president by the National Emergency Management Agency and the Defense Headquarters or if you like, the Military Command, who had been given strict instructions to go and investigate what happened in Baga; to intervene in terms of rehabilitation of the victims, and to also determine weather rules of engagement of the military authorities had been respected or not, and to make appropriate recommendations.
In that report, the military authorities made it very clear, that the incident occurred on April 16th and not the April 19th that was being published by newspapers, and that contrary to the reports, there was no case of over 200 people or 158 persons dying, that also there were no mass graves in Baga, and that the investigations revealed that 30 Boko Haram terrorists died, one soldier and some bodies were found in Lake Chad, a few meters away from the scene of the confrontation.
The report also made it clear that arson is a usual method adopted by the Boko Haram terrorists, and that these Boko Haram terrorists, some of the weapons ceased from them, included rocket grenades, bombs, AK47s, and a lot of sophisticated weapons. And that in the process, many of the buildings around the area of the confrontation were set on fire by the Boko Haram terrorists.
It was also made clear that the military command in its investigations was able to establish that there were no mass graves and there was no evidence that so many people died. NEMA pointed out that it has set up its own intervention program, including units for internally displaced persons. And as at the time that statement was issued, 642 persons had been accommodated at the internally displaced persons unit. And also, NEMA made it very clear that the graves that the officials visited, the two major graves in the community, that they could only find a total of just 32 graves.
In terms of population, Baga is a very small fishing community on the boarder between Nigeria and Chad. And even in terms of the number of houses in that community, you don’t have up to 1,000 houses. So where was this information coming from that 3,000 houses were burnt, 4,000 houses were torched, so NEMA concluded also that there has been a lot of misinformation.
2. Are you saying Red Cross lied and the Senator that visited Baga and said 228 people died are you saying he lied?
The figures that are being banded around cannot be substantiated, and I’m quoting that line directly from the NEMA report. The NEMA officials were there on the ground, they conducted their investigations, you’re quoting Red Cross, don’t forget that many of the aid workers were claiming that they were not granted access; the same people who said they were not granted access are quoting figures. And NEMA has already debunked that and said that nobody was barred from accessing the community. NEMA was granted access, Red Cross was granted access, and the investigations that NEMA and the defense authority did are the details that I have given you earlier on.
3. What about the Senator?
The question we should ask is ‘Did the Senator go to there or was he speaking on the basis on hearsay? (He went, he spent two days there) Then the question is how did he conduct his own investigations? What empirical evidence does he have? Because we should refrain from relying on gossip or hearsay. And I believe that the senator, am sure the authorities may possibly invite him to provide evidence and to assist in the investigations that are still continuing.
4. What about the published satellite image of Baga before and after the incidence, have you seen the picture?
Well, I have seen the satellite images that are being circulated. But you know those satellite images are questionable. (So are they lying?) You know that satellite imagery is determined by a lot of variables: whether condition, the quality of equipment, the resolution, the distance, the all of that. And the military authority have made it very clear that the Nigerian authority have also carried out their own satellite imagery using Nigeria’s tools. And the evidence that they have is clearly different from the evidence that the Human Rights Watch is talking about.
In that same Human Rights Watch report, it is claimed that certain persons in the community were interviewed. Where were they interviewed? When? These are questions that you should ask. I mean the same people said they were not granted access, so how did they conduct their interviews? And if they said they conducted their interviews by phone, the report states that communication satellite mast in that community had been damaged by the Boko Haram terrorists, such that at the moment, it’s very difficult to make phone calls to that community.
And then of course it is not impossible if at all anyone was interviewed, you ought to realize that there is a lot of politicking involved in this matter, people are beginning to play politics with it, but the military authority and the Nigerian State has the responsibility to ensure the integrity of a Nigerian state, to ensure that the sovereignty of Nigeria is not violated, and to ensure that terrorist are not allowed to create a State within the State. Because what the authorities are faced with is a situation whereby the terrorists are almost creating an enclave inside the Nigerian territory.
5. Are you going to have an independent investigation apart from government owned agencies?
In the statement that I issued on this matter, I made it clear that president Jonathan welcomed the decision by the National Human Rights Commission to conduct its own independent investigations. And the council of the National Human Rights Commission already met, and they issued a statement saying that they would carryout independent investigations. Whoever wants to also carryout independent investigations is welcome.
6. Historically, Nigerian government is known to downplay figures in incidences like this. So you should understand why people are not believing what the government is saying, do you?
Well, the government is also concerned that people are playing politics with this Baga incidence, that there is a lot of misinformation out there, and there seems to be a deliberate attempt to give a bad name in order to harm it.
7. Killing of innocent civilians by the Nigerian military is nothing new. Former President Olusegun Obasanjo had his Odi massacre. President Yar’Adua actually created the modern day Boko Haram after his security agents massacred over 1000 members of Boko Haram. Is Baga President Jonathan’s own massacre? In this new world order where heads of states face charges of crime against humanity for ordering the killing of his own citizens is the president worried about the possibility of facing charges in the International Criminal Court over the activities of the JTF?
One, the position of the government is that there was no massacre in Baga. Two, the reports by investigators also made it clear that the Boko Haram terrorists were the ones who set houses on fire, and the ones who have turned Baga into an enclave within the Nigerian State. And to the extent that that is true means that the terrorists are determined to violate the sovereignty of Nigeria.
The investigations that have been carried out by the Nigerian authority are already public material and there is no reason why anyone should play politics talking about international criminal court. I don’t think that that is what we’re dealing with in this situation. But of course the National Human Rights Commission is going to carryout its own investigations, President Jonathan has said that the investigations should continue, and that where it can be established that there has been any misdeed or misconduct, that the administration will do everything to ensure that justice is done.
8. Will the government allow an international/external agency to come and look into this incidence?
Yes, whoever wants to come and investigate is welcome. But what we expect is that people will be truthful, and that they will not play politics, or set out to work to a predetermined formula or answer, as seems to be the case at the moment.
9. Do you think this will have an impact on the amnesty talk and the goal to see if Boko Haram could be brought into the administration for any kind of negotiation?
If anything, I think what has happened in Baga again, brought attention to the fact that every step must be taken to bring this terrorist challenge that we have in that part of the country to an end. And the situation that we have on our hands now is that a lot of Nigerians are recommending the amnesty option, and government has set the machinery in motion for this to be considered as an option that can be taken along with other measures that are being adopted.
So I don’t see it as standing in the way of the measures being taken.
10. Did President Jonathan awards $40million contract to an Israeli company to monitor computer, Internet communication by Nigerians? Will some Israelis soon be reading my emails to my grandmother?
Well, the report that I read indicated that the Israeli company that is being talked about never mentioned Nigeria. It only referred to an unnamed African country. It is the people doing the interpretation who are insisting that it must be Nigeria. I think that those making the claim must be certain that it is Nigeria that is being referred to. And in the reports that I have read, there is no clear indication that the Isreali company talked about Nigeria.
11. Are you saying that as far as you know, there was no contract given to this Isreali company?
Well, am referring to the report on which your question is based, and am saying that the press release on which the stories are based, that press release by the Isreali company never mentioned Nigeria. However, speaking theoretically, you will note that in an age of terrorism, and with the kind of security challenges we have in the world today, many countries have seen the need in combating terrorism to upscale their intelligence gathering methods. And in many of the countries that we like to quote, that we like to refer to, you know for a fact that several methods are taken to monitor what happens in cyber space and to prevent cyber crime, and to ensure that nobody abuses an important medium as the internet. But that is speaking theoretically.
So you’re sure that Nigerian government did not give contract to this company?
Well, I can find out for you, but you know these are security matters. But I have taken note of your request, I will find out.
12. The presidency said that the US report on corruption in Nigeria is exaggerated. That same week the Senate Public Accounts Committee submitted a report that says that N1.5trillion special accounts funds by the Federal Government was misused from 2002-2012. The three special funds accounts are the Stabilization Account, Ecological Fund Account and the Natural Resources Account. How could that happen?
Well, that has not been proven, and I don’t know the details of that story. But you know of course that often times, some of these things come up, and when they’re properly investigated they’re found not to be actually accurate. But that story I don’t quite have the details, but I can assure you that allegations of mass corruption, all these are exaggerated. And as we move towards 2015 with which a lot of people seems to be so upset, you’ll keep finding all kinds of stories, which are contrive, and which are being brought forward to public attention just to see if the administration can be discredited. So there’s a lot of mischief out there.
This administration has made it very clear that it is committed to good governance, transparency and integrity in all its processes. And many steps are being taken to ensure that these objectives are met, that these objectives are achieved on a sustainable bases. And there has been many cases on a daily basis with clear evidence of the administration dealing with corruption. And I think that the last time that you and I discussed, you know I gave many examples in this regards, including the fact that the fuel subsidy scam was something that was exposed by this administration.
Two, the fact that political corruption is probably the biggest corruption, and this administration has been dealing with that. Today we live in a country where people praise election conducted by this administration, as being free and fair. Many elections have been held under President Jonathan’s watch, and there has been no evidence, no indication of interference by the center, or any attempt as was the case in the past by anybody at the center to impose his will on the will of Nigerians. This president is committed to free and fair elections, electoral process that is very high in terms of integrity.
Look at what the administration is also doing in terms of the ports, you know, getting the ports cleared of all the toll gates that people have erected there. Look at what is being done in terms of even double-checking and making sure that people who are working for the government are properly documented. Look at what has been done in the Agric sector, the same Agric sector in this country that was defined by sheer scam, fertilizer scam, tractor scam, all of that has changed, and a lot is still changing. But the opposition in Nigeria will like to keep concocting stories trying to embarrass the government and claiming that the government is not fighting corruption.
The truth of the matter is that this government is committed to the fight against corruption.
13. What happened to the buses we were promised when the government removed subsidy?
You know that after removal of partial subsidy that occurred in 2012 following the protest, government immediately set up the Sure-P committee. The Sure-P committee is a body set up to monitor how the savings are spent. I’ve heard a number of people talking about projects by Sure-P. it is actually an oversight body working with the project implementation units in the various ministries. And what government did was to outline and publish all the activities that Sure-P would oversee. And Dr. Christopher Kolade who is the head of that committee has given reports again and again and again.
One of the programs under Sure-P has been 1, Empowerment at the level of maternal and child healthcare. Before December last year, almost about 4,000 health workers were engaged and sent to different parts of the country, focusing specifically on the issue of maternal and child health.
On the issue of employment, under Sure-P we have what is called the graduate internship scheme, to which over 13,000 Nigerian companies signed up. And by December last year, over 100,000 Nigerian graduates were already being placed in various companies and that number has even gone up this year.
The transportation that you refer to, when people say they have not seen the buses, I think they’re under the impression that they would see buses on the road with the inscription “Sure-P buses,” or “this is an initiative of the federal government” as it’s done in some States.
The Sure-P transportation program and the buses you talked about, was done in partnership with the Road Transport Workers Union, the RTEAN and also the NURTW. What government did was to assist transport owners to have access to soft loans and to be able to acquire buses, in order to make road transportation easier.
So those buses are there, but the buses are not owned by the federal government. They’re buses that are owned by individuals doing their own business who are members of the road transport union, so that is the situation.
14. Are you saying Nigerians should know that some of the buses on the roads today were part of the money from the partial removal of oil subsidy?
It was part of it, with assistance given to NURTW and RTEAN members. And am sure if you check, that the NURTW and the RTEAN have issued statements on this in the past. In fact, when the program was launched, there was a major event at the Eagle Square in Abuja, and members of these two bodies that I mentioned were there. And they confirmed that they’re receiving support from the federal government.
15. So is there anywhere that the media could go and see the amount of money that was given to each transport group to buy buses? Is there anywhere we can see that?
The Sure-P committee has been giving account, it also has a website where it applies most of the things that it has done, the ministry of trade and investment which was also involved in the processes also have the information. And of course you can double check with the members of the NURTW and the RTEAN. Am sure that they will not deny that there was a very serious intervention by the government to ensure that buses are made available to them at affordable prices.
16. Why is it that we don’t know who gets what? How much they get as security votes? What they’re using it for? For instance, how much does the president get as security votes, do you know?
Well, what I know is that the salaries of public officials is a matter determined by the RMAFC, and that body has a website where it publishes what government officials are paid at various levels. But the security vote that you talk about, I really don’t have information for you on security vote, but in terms of transparency and accountability, what anybody in the Nigerian government has is out there in the public domain, and the website of RMAFC makes it very clear.
17. But we know that when we say somebody earns N500,000.00 the person might end up earning N200,000000.00 as allowances. N200,000000.00 as security votes. Would you be able to provide for Nigerians, how much these individuals in power/government earn as security votes? Is it in the constitution? Why are these people taking this amount of money from the government?
Well, I really don’t have information as what you refer to as security votes. But the good news of course, is that one of the achievements of this administration is that President Jonathan signed the freedom of information bill into law. So people who require information that is not readily available, the law makes provision for you to follow due process and request for information.
I also know that a lot of people have applied and followed the process but people still could not be given that information. Lets leave this. …
The test of a law is intis implementaion. What you are saying should not discourage anybody from continuing to test the law. And for one or two persons that you have who may claim that they have not been given any response, and even when they get the response they are not likely to come out and say have received the response form the appropriate agency but the law is there, is just for us to continue to use the law.
18. In July, it will be two years that you’ve moved from Oshodi to Aso rock. What changed in your life and what has changed in the way you see Nigerians?
I don’t know what you mean by what has changed in terms of how I see Nigerians.
19. From your experience being at the other side of the fence, how do you see Nigerians for instance? You were once with the media, now you are at the receiving end. What is your perception of things in the last two years?
I still believe that the media is a major partner in nation building. The media has the constitutional duty (section 22 of the 1999 constitution) and its main mandate is to hold government accountable and to defend the people’s interest, so in terms of its constitutional duty nobody can at anytime question the rule of the media and of course we all know the media has a very historic place in the making of Nigeria. The only thing of course that is bothersome is when the freedom the media enjoys is abused by the practitioners or when the issues of responsibility arise, because the media freedom that e talk about must also be combined with responsibility and I have observed in many instances that media platforms that are very partisan in terms of their ownership structure tend to get into the arena of real partisan politics and in the process they get into situations where they raise through their reports issues of ethics and professionalism. That is the only major challenge that I have seen and I think that as you move towards 2015 which many Nigerians talk aboiut now you are likely to find a lot of media platforms becoming more and more partisan.
20. Are you concerned that a recent report is ranking Nigeria second to Somalia as one of the worst places to be a journalist?
You know of course rhat that report is inaccurate. You know that Nigerian journalists are not underseige. There is no media restriction. Under this administration, there has been further expansion in terms of the freedom of the media and even in terms of the scope, even in terms of the number, even in terms of the practise. And that report was not talking about government media relations. It was focusing more on impunity resulting in the death of journalists. Nine journalists the report stated in the past five years, but in terms of government media relations, this is a very free country. The relationship between the government and he media is not adversarial as some people try to construct it. The government definitely has seen the media as a major partner in the process of nation building.
21. Fair or not people seem to see you as a poster boy for what they regard as hypocrisy in the media, which is that people go into the media so that they will get something from the government. Has it been been your go when you were with guardian to be where you are now i.e. Special assistant to the president in media? Do you see that as the pinnacle of your career because everybody in the media wants to be in your position. Was that the plan?
I’m used to people abusing me and calling me names and all of that but my standard response to that is as follows. This is Nigeria, we wrote essays, we wrote articles, we made comments, indicating that we need the best and the brightest in government . That we need al the best hands that we can get to go into government and to strengthen government form within, and then we are faced with this paradoxical situation. People are invited, they are called to national service, people we consider credible, people we think can make a contribution, people we think has something to offer, and such persons honour that call to national service and then we turn around and call them names. My comment on this we be to say that the critics, as many Nigerians as possible to take a keen interest in how Nigeria is governed and that when they have the opportunity to be part of the governance process, they should not be afraid to go into government. People will always talk, but I think that my taking this appointment and my being in government has been a great experince. It’s a position of privilege, and in the less than two years that have been here, I have come to learn a lot about how this country is organized and what the challenges are on both sides.
22. I recently watched Kenyan new president come out in public and take questions from the media openly. A lot of reporters were asking questions. Do you think that one of the problems, communicatioin wise frm this government is that the president has not been doing this frequently, which is to come out of the media openly, not the media chat that is organized in such a way that is restricted, and take questions. Or even you, just like we see everyday in Washington take questions from the media, maybe every week that will be public and people will see you answering questions on issues of importance like we are doing today.
I take questioins virtually everyday from the media, I receive phone calls, people want clarifications,. This is what I do as a matter of routine. We have a press call that is resident in the villa. They have direct access to me. And at anytime when they want questions answered I’m available to them. I do briefings on a regular basis, I’m on Televisions, I’m on radio,. In the last two weeks alone, I must have granted over twenty live interviews on radio and televisions. I’m on internet, I have a website, I have a Twitter account. We are virtually communicating.
23. This s why I asked the question, we read a lot of report and it say the Special adviver to the government on media could not be reached. Or that we sent text and calls but could not respond to our calls. The question in the mind of a reader is ‘are you avoiding the media, why is it that you are not responding?’ And you have people working for you, in case you are not available. At the end you will not read the government’s side of the story.
I’m available all the time. Maybe out of twenty reports, you will see one or two saying I cannot be reached. And then of course you know that no comment is also a response in certain situations.
O go back to the earlier question, the president has a media chat on a regular basis and the media chat is not restricted. The people that we invite to come and interview the president are Nigerians, they are journalists. The last one we held, people were allowed to send in questions through Twitter. We also used phone calls, so its an opened process, and the president is always interacting with the media. He grants interviews at every occasion he is available. The government is not running away from the media. We see the media as partners.
24. Ok can you help us to push the president to have an online conversation with Nigerians abroad? Something like what we are having now. We could arrange it with people all over the world to talk to the president.
I’ve noted your request.
Thank you so much for coming.
Thank you!
